The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:15 a.m., in room 457, Senate Office Building, Senator Blair Moody (chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding. Present: Senator Moody (chairman of the subcommittee). Also present: Charles M. Noone, committee counsel, and William D. Amis, investigator.

SENATOR MOODY: The committee will be in order. Is Mr. Alfred W. Lawson here?

MR. LAWSON: Yes, Sir.

SENATOR MOODY: Will you come forward, please? Do you solemnly swear your testimony before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

MR. LAWSON: I swear whatever I say will be true.

SENATOR MOODY: All right, sir.

MR. AMIS: Have a seat.

SENATOR MOODY: Sit at the end of the table.

MR. LAWSON: Here? (indicating)

SENATOR MOODY: Yes. Will you give your name and address, please, Mr. Lawson, and your occupation.

MR. LAWSON: Alfred William Lawson. That is the name. Is that what you wanted?

SENATOR MOODY: Can you hear me all right?

MR. LAWSON: Well, if you can talk a little slower perhaps I can. Can you hear me?

SENATOR MOODY: Yes.

MR. LAWSON: All right.

SENATOR MOODY: What is your address?

MR. LAWSON: Address?

SENATOR MOODY: Yes.

MR. LAWSON: Well, I suppose you would call it the University of Lawsonomy. Letters reach me there any time they are sent. I go there every once in a while and stay overnight or two or three days to see that the institution is being run as I direct it. I am the donor of the institution.

SENATOR MOODY: Where do you live?

MR. LAWSON: Where do I live?

SENATOR MOODY: Yes.

MR. LAWSON: Well I live wherever I happen to be. I am traveling around the country all the time in the interest of my work, stopping at different hotels and so on. I have no permanent home except I stop at the university every few weeks for two or three days or a week.

SENATOR MOODY: Do you have a family?

MR. LAWSON: What is that?

SENATOR MOODY: Do you have a family?

MR. LAWSON: I have a family; yes.

SENATOR MOODY: Where does your family live?

MR. LAWSON: Columbus. They are in Columbus; yes. I don't want that made public because a got a couple of children I am sure they have been trying to kidnap already, and it is a shame to think that a man has to give a university away to a bunch of directors and then have to pay the penalty to come to court as though he was one of them. I am the donor of the university out there of Lawsonomy. I gave it. I gave it to a board of trustees. They control it. All I do is go back every once in a while and see that they are operating it as I would like to see it operated, and when I gave it to the board of trustees I have nothing to do with it. I don't own it, except I go and see that they are doing what I would like them to do as the donor of it.

SENATOR MOODY: I take it that you live in Columbus; is that correct?

MR. LAWSON: I would not say that. I go there and see my family every once in a while.

SENATOR MOODY: Mr. Lawson, you bought some machine tools from the Government, did you not?

MR. LAWSON: Not me, it was the board of trustees that bought it.

SENATOR MOODY: The board of trustees?

MR. LAWSON: Yes.

SENATOR MOODY: Who are the board of trustees?

MR. LAWSON: Why, the board of trustees are appointed by me.

SENATOR MOODY: Who are they?

MR. LAWSON: Boy, if you want me to tell you all these things, you will wreck my mind. I can't think of all these little things. I am telling you the board of trustees was appointed by me as the donor of the university.

SENATOR MOODY: Well, who bought the machine tools? Did you buy them?

MR. LAWSON: No; the trustees bought the machine tools.

SENATOR MOODY: Who are they?

MR. LAWSON: Well, there you are again. There are nine of them.

SENATOR MOODY: Can you give us their names?

MR. LAWSON: I can't think of all these things. You must remember I am 82 years old and will be 83 this month. I can't think of all these back things. I have four corporations to look after, and then you ask me to tell you all these little points. I can't do it. If you will give me time and write what you want me to say, and I take 2 or 3 days to think it over, I will give you a wonderful answer. But I would like you to put them in writing so I can study them over.

SENATOR MOODY: Do you know who these nine trustees of your university are?

MR. LAWSON: Eh?

SENATOR MOODY: Do you know who the trustees are?

MR. LAWSON: Why, I appointed them; yes.

SENATOR MOODY: Well, who are they?

MR. LAWSON: There you are again. There is nine of them, and there is about two or three hundred different people connected with this thing, and if you ask me who they all are, I can't remember. You must remember I am 82 years old and this month I will be 83, and I don't memorize things any more as I used to.

Now I am writing books. I write a book every year. I have written 50 books already in the last 20 years, and that wears on your memory, remember.

SENATOR MOODY: Can you find out who these trustees are and let us have them in writing?

MR. LAWSON: Certainly I can find out if you give me the time to write there and get the full particulars, or even if I was downtown I might think them out if I had the time. But to suddenly ask me all these questions, a man of my age, with the memory on the decline, you might say, why you are asking almost impossibilities.

I tell you I am the donor. I appointed these trustees, nine of them, and they are operating the university. I go back every once in a while and see that they are operating it as I want it operated as the donor.

SENATOR MOODY: How many students do you have in the university?

MR. LAWSON: Why, they come and go.

SENATOR MOODY: How many?

MR. LAWSON: We have only about 20 there now. We have had as high as a hundred. A lot of them went to war.

SENATOR MOODY: I see.

MR. LAWSON: So far we have lost about 400 of our students in war.

SENATOR MOODY: Do you remember buying some machine tools from the Government?

MR. LAWSON: The board of trustees bought them. I was there at some of the purchases and O.K.'d it, because I thought it was good policy.

SENATOR MOODY: What were the tools bought for?

MR. LAWSON: To teach the students as they come along, teach them the operation--not the operation, but the make-up of the tools. I don't know one tool from another--good, bad, or indifferent. But I thought it would be a good plan, and for that reason I gave my O.K. to the board of trustees to buy those tools at the very small price, the same as all other colleges in the United States and schools bought them. I didn't get them any cheaper. I got them at the same price that all colleges in America got them--5 percent on the dollar. And we were supposed to keep them for 3 years without selling them. So we did not sell them.

As I understand the board of trustees, they have not sold them within 3 years, so they lived up to their contract.

SENATOR MOODY: You say that is what the board of trustees told you?

MR. LAWSON: Board of what?

SENATOR MOODY: You say that is what the board of trustees told you?

MR. LAWSON. The board of trustees tell me what?

SENATOR MOODY. Well, you said the board of trustees told you.

MR. LAWSON. Yes. It was a printed thing for all colleges and all schools, as you no doubt know, for 5 percent on the dollar, that the colleges and schools could buy these machines on the condition that they kept them for 3 years and didn't sell them before 3 years, which our school, I understand, didn't sell any of them within the said 3 years. Therefore our school lived up to their agreement.

SENATOR MOODY: Now who on the board of trustees told you that?

MR. LAWSON: Well, you know there you go again. We have had at least 50 different trustees since I started there.

SENATOR MOODY: Which one of these 50 different trustees that you refer to told you about these machine tools that were available in the hands of the Government?

MR. LAWSON: Well, it was continual talk--you are pinning me down to something that I can't remember, who is who.

SENATOR MOODY: Do you remember any of the members of the board of trustees who talked to you about this?

MR. LAWSON: Well, we had a machine man there, for instance.

SENATOR MOODY: What was his name?

MR. LAWSON: His name was--there you go again on names, as though I can pick all these different things up suddenly and answer you; a man 82 years of age with his memory on the decline, you might say, and asking him all these questions suddenly. If you will put those questions in writing I will answer every one of them.

SENATOR MOODY: Here is something we did put in writing, and I would like to know whether you have complied with the direction of the committee. Did your bring your records on these machine tools this morning?

MR. LAWSON: When I got your letter to that effect I came right here, and I have been here since yesterday. I got your letter yesterday, or Saturday night, and I got here Sunday.

SENATOR MOODY: So you did not bring your records on these machine tool purchases?

MR. LAWSON: What is that?

SENATOR MOODY: Did you bring your records on these machine tools?

MR. LAWSON: I never carry the records. I have nothing to do with the records. The board of trustees control the records. They are out in the university.

SENATOR MOODY: In Des Moines, Iowa?

MR. LAWSON: Des Moines, Iowa. The records are all there. I never touch the records. I never touch anything. I am the donor and I go around to see that they are doing what I would like them to do as donor, and they have done it so far. They haven't done anything wrong as far as I can see. If you can prove anything wrong with the board of trustees, I would like to know, because I didn't give my life's work for a board of trustees that will do things that are wrong. To me they have done everything that is right. I go there once in a while and everything is conducted as I would like to see it conducted as a donor.

SENATOR MOODY: Mr. Lawson, you are under subpoena by this committee to produce those records. Will you or your board of trustees produce those for the committee?

MR. LAWSON: The board of trustees. I called up the secretary last night----

SENATOR MOODY: What is his name?

MR. LAWSON: (continuing) And they are willing to bring those here whenever we say to bring them here.

SENATOR MOODY: What is the secretary's name?

MR. LAWSON: George Sorenson. Don't ask me to recall every fellow.

SENATOR MOODY: George Sorenson?

MR. LAWSON: Yes. Yes. I even have to take time to think of George Sorenson who acts as secretary during the last 3 or 4 years, during the whole machine period. He is the machine man. He knows all about machines. I don't know anything about machines.

SENATOR MOODY: It looks as though someone knew something about it. Is Mr. Sorenson at the university in Des Moines now?

MR. LAWSON: He is there now, and I called up one of them last night and told them to be ready to bring those things when ordered.

SENATOR MOODY: You have been ordered. You were ordered to bring them this morning,. Will you produce them at your earliest convenience for the committee?

MR. LAWSON: I called up last night and they are waiting, I suppose, for me to say what you want me to do.

SENATOR MOODY: You tell them to send them to the committee, will you?

MR. LAWSON: I will tell the secretary and treasurer. They are the only ones that handle those things.

SENATOR MOODY: All right, you tell them to send those records to the committee. Will you do that?

MR. LAWSON: To bring those records? Just what do you want--the books?

SENATOR MOODY: The books, records, and papers which pertain to and deal with the purchase, use, sale, and disposition of machine tools, and all records and contracts between the Des Moines University of Lawsonomy and the United States Government pertaining to the purchase and sale of machine tools.

MR. LAWSON: Yes.

SENATOR MOODY: We want----

MR. LAWSON: Could you write that all out and I will telephone it exactly as you said it.

SENATOR MOODY: You have a copy of the subpoena, which has the words that I just said. I just read from the subpoena. You either have that----

MR. LAWSON: I have got that.

SENATOR MOODY: You just send that subpoena to Mr. Sorenson and tell him to send this committee the things which the subpoena calls for by registered mail.

MR. LAWSON: Do what?

SENATOR MOODY: Send it by registered mail.

MR. LAWSON: Just send it? Don't have to bring it here? It will be all right, better to send by registered mail?

SENATOR MOODY: Just a minute. Who is the active head of the university now?

MR. LAWSON: Who is what?

SENATOR MOODY: Who is the active head of the university, Mr. Sorenson?

MR. LAWSON: We have a president, secretary, and treasurer. Sorenson is the secretary.

SENATOR MOODY: Who is the president?

MR. LAWSON: The president is Hayter.

SENATOR MOODY: Will you spell his name?

MR. LAWSON: H-a-y-t-e-r.

SENATOR MOODY: H-a-y-t-e-r?

MR. LAWSON: Yes. He is the president. President Hayter, Secretary George Sorenson. George Sorenson was secretary and treasurer until just the last board of trustees' meeting, and they put in another treasurer. Sorenson is still secretary.

SENATOR MOODY: I see.

MR. LAWSON. The new treasurer don't know much about the machines and has just been in for a few days.

SENATOR MOODY: Mr. Lawson, how many machine tools were purchased from the War Assets Administration under the rules prescribed?

MR. LAWSON: I haven't the least knowledge of it.

SENATOR MOODY: You have no idea?

MR. LAWSON: No, I have no idea. There is quite a number of them. There is probably between 50 and 100. I don't know.

SENATOR MOODY: The records of the committee and the Government show there were 62.

MR. LAWSON: 62?

SENATOR MOODY: Yes.

MR. LAWSON: You can let that stand as far as I am concerned. I don't know, though.

SENATOR MOODY: Do you know how much these machines cost--how much you paid for them?

MR. LAWSON: We paid 5 percent on the dollar, the same as all colleges in the United States did. No difference.

SENATOR MOODY: That is right. Now how much did you pay for these 62 machine tools?

MR. LAWSON: How much?

SENATOR MOODY: How much did you pay for the machine tools?

MR. LAWSON: 5 percent on the dollar, as I understand it.

SENATOR MOODY: How much does that amount to in dollars?

MR. LAWSON: I don't know. I never went into figures. I don't know how to keep books. I never kept books in my life. They give me a report once a month as to how the standing of the finances is. That is all I know about the bookkeeping.

SENATOR MOODY: For a man who cannot keep books, I think you did pretty well on this deal.

MR. LAWSON: Yes, I did pretty well because I think. I have written 50 books for the good of mankind, and I am teaching those books right in that university.

SENATOR MOODY: Now for the benefit of the record, I think I should say that the Government records show that the university purchased for $4,480.09 from the War Assets Administration 62 machine tools which had cost the Government $204,4l7.31.

MR. LAWSON: I can't vouchsafe for those figures. The secretary-treasurer will have-to vouchsafe for them.

SENATOR MOODY: In that case you will please instruct them to come to Washington in accordance with the date and time set by Mr. Noone, counsel for this committee. Mr. Noone will tell you when to have them come to Washington.

MR. LAWSON: I didn't catch your words at all.

SENATOR MOODY: Mr. Noone, the counsel for the committee, who is sitting on my left----

MR. LAWSON: Yes.

SENATOR MOODY: (continuing) Will tell you when we want the president and the secretary-treasurer of your university to come to Washington and bring with them the papers which are called for in the subpoena you have in your hand.

MR. LAWSON: Wouldn't the president and secretary do? The new treasurer doesn't know one thing about it.

SENATOR MOODY: All right, the president and the secretary.

MR. LAWSON: That will be all right.

SENATOR MOODY: I thought the secretary and treasurer were one man.

MR. LAWSON: The president and the secretary. Now the secretary is a machine man. I had him come there to teach these students machinery and also to look after the books.

SENATOR MOODY: Did he tell you when these tools were purchased that the university had to hold them for 3 years?

MR. LAWSON: Yes. In one case, they were 1 year and finally 3 years.

SENATOR MOODY: So at the time these tools were purchased he said that the university would have to hold them for 3 years; is that right?

MR. LAWSON: Yes. I understood that. They were to be held from 1 to 3 years, which I understand they were held for, I to 3 years.

SENATOR MOODY: Now at the time when he told you about the purchase of the tools, did he point out to you that at the end of 3 years you could sell them at a substantial profit for the university?

MR. LAWSON: I don't catch you on that.

SENATOR MOODY: At the time Mr. Sorenson told you about these machine tools and about the opportunity for purchasing them, did he tell you then that after holding the machine tools for 3 years there was a prospect that they might be sold at a handsome profit?

MR. LAWSON: I don't remember him telling me that; no.

SENATOR MOODY: He didn't?

MR. LAWSON: No.

SENATOR MOODY: What courses does the university teach?

MR. LAWSON: What courses?

SENATOR MOODY: What courses does the university teach in which these tools might be used?

MR. LAWSON: Well, they teach Lawsonomy, teach music, they teach theology, they teach--oh, I wouldn't have to think of the various things they teach now.

SENATOR MOODY: On which of these courses would they use machine tools?

MR. LAWSON: They were bought so that they would teach them the different names on the machines and how they were to be operated. That is what I understand was to be done.

SENATOR MOODY: In which course did you use the tools? You did not use them in the music course, did you?

MR. LAWSON: Well, they were to use them in the mechanical end.

SENATOR MOODY: Do they teach mechanics at the university?

MR. LAWSON: They teach the biggest and greatest mechanics the world has ever known; they teach Lawsonomy Principles. Lawsonomy is the knowledge of life and everything pertaining thereto, and that takes in mechanics.

SENATOR MOODY: That would include everything, is that it?

MR. LAWSON: What is that?

SENATOR MOODY: Have those machines ever been set up and has the current been turned on to operate those machines in the 3 years the university has held them?

MR. LAWSON: I wouldn't say because I don't know.

SENATOR MOODY: I see.

MR. LAWSON: I can't say something I don't know.

SENATOR MOODY: That is right.

MR. LAWSON: They may have and they may not. I only go there once in a while to see that the operation of the university is conducted as I, the donor wanted it conducted.

SENATOR MOODY: Have you ever seen these machines in operation?

MR. LAWSON: I won't say that. They have done some machine work there. I have been there when they have been sawing up one thing or another. That is all I know about it.

SENATOR MOODY: In your periodic visits to the university have you ever seen a class at the university using these machines in instruction and learning how to operate them?

MR. LAWSON: I don't think they were learning how to operate them. 1 think they were learning the reasons and the uses to be made out of them.

SENATOR MOODY: I see.

MR. LAWSON: Not to operate them, but to teach them the different parts of the different machines as they stood there. That is the way I understand it.

SENATOR MOODY: Did you ever attend such a class when those machines were being used for instructional purposes?

MR. LAWSON: No, I can't say that I did. I have four corporations to look after that takes me all over the country, and I have a hard time getting to see my wife and babies every once in a while, let alone figuring out all these things.

SENATOR MOODY: What are the names of these four corporations, Mr. Lawson?

MR. LAWSON: Well, one is the Direct Credits Society; has been operating for 20 years.

SENATOR MOODY: That is located where?

MR. LAWSON: The head of that concern is in Toledo, but the home of it is in Detroit.

SENATOR MOODY: What are the other corporations that you operate?

MR. LAWSON: The Humanity Benefactor Foundation publishes all my books.

SENATOR MOODY: The Humanity Benefactor Foundation?

MR. LAWSON: Yes. That is in Detroit, Mich., 600 Woodward Ave.

SENATOR MOODY: And what other corporations do you have?

MR. LAWSON: Well, that is two, is it not?

SENATOR MOODY: That is two.

MR. LAWSON: What two have 1 told you?

SENATOR MOODY: The Direct Credits and the Humanity Benefactor Foundation.

MR. LAWSON: Then the university is three.

SENATOR MOODY: Is there a fourth one?

MR. LAWSON: We are incorporated as a religion, the Lawsonian Religion in Michigan.

SENATOR MOODY: I see.

MR. LAWSON: So there is the fourth one.

SENATOR MOODY: You are incorporated as a religion as a Michigan corporation; is that correct?

MR. LAWSON: That makes four corporations. Lawsonian Religion is what we are incorporated in the State of Michigan.

SENATOR MOODY: Was your original home in the State of Michigan?

MR. LAWSON: Detroit, Mich., is my original home.

SENATOR MOODY: Were you born in Detroit?

MR. LAWSON: I was born in England, brought up 3 years in Windsor, and the rest of the time I have been a citizen of the United States, and I have worked like hell for the United States, and I am going to as long as I live.

SENATOR MOODY: That is fine.

MR. LAWSON: I gave to the United States the aircraft industry, and if you read my history you will find it all there. They did not copy me for 10 years after I built the first airliner that ran from Milwaukee to Washington and back, and the Army said it couldn't be done. When I got here to Washington, Billy--what is his name?--one of the old-timers�

SENATOR MOODY: Mitchell?

MR. LAWSON: Billy Mitchell told me that the commanding officer tried to get him to say that machine could not get up in Milwaukee and fly, it was too big. I asked Mitchell then--incidentally, he gave me the use of his car and drove me around Washington. I asked him, "What does the commanding officer say now about the machine flying?" "Well," he said, "he says it will fly now."

SENATOR MOODY: Now, Mr. Lawson, after the school of Lawsonomy in Des Moines had held these machines for 3 years, did it begin to sell the machines on the market?

MR. LAWSON: Not for 3 years, although---

SENATOR MOODY: After 3 years.

MR. LAWSON: After 3 years there was some of it sold; yes.

SENATOR MOODY: How could you continue your classes in machinery or in Lawsonomy or whatever it was you were using the machines for if you sold the machines?

MR. LAWSON: Well, that was to help pay the expenses that we had of building. We had to build a building. It cost us $50,000.00 to fix an old building up so we could use it for the storage of those things. Therefore, we considered that, by the use of that building and all it cost us since we got them more than 3 years ago, we have a loss. We are at a loss; we are not at a gain of anything; we are at a loss.

SENATOR MOODY: Now you say it cost you $50,000.00---

MR. LAWSON: Thereabouts.

SENATOR MOODY: To refit a building to put these machines in; is that right?

MR. LAWSON: Yes; and store them there.

SENATOR MOODY: What?

MR. LAWSON: The Army people told us they couldn't store all the machinery they had, and that is why they were giving out these machines at 5 percent on the dollar to colleges.

SENATOR MOODY: The records indicate that you have sold, or the university has sold, 45 machines at a price of $120,000.00; is that correct?

MR. LAWSON: I don't know. You are asking me something that I don't know.

SENATOR MOODY: Well, who handles the money for your university?

MR. LAWSON: Why, the secretary and treasurer handles all the money.

SENATOR MOODY: Is that one person or two persons?

MR. LAWSON: It was one person until the last board of trustees' meeting; then we divided it up and made one secretary and we made one treasurer. So we have one treasurer and one secretary; but the treasurer does not know; he has just been in for a week or two and knows nothing about machines.

SENATOR MOODY: When was this board of trustees' meeting?

MR. LAWSON: When what?

SENATOR MOODY: When was the meeting?

MR. LAWSON: It was within the last month.

SENATOR MOODY: Within the last month?

MR. LAWSON: About a month; yes. There is another meeting to take place, I understand, within the next week or so.

SENATOR MOODY: Now, as I understand it, the man who was previously secretary-treasurer was Mr. Sorenson; is that right?

MR. LAWSON: Sorenson was secretary-treasurer. He is the man that should talk, both treasury and secretary.

SENATOR MOODY: He is also the man who advised you to get the machine tools, and he is the man who supervised the purchase and sale of them; is that correct?

MR. LAWSON: Yes.

SENATOR MOODY: I see.

MR. LAWSON: Now they consulted with me every once in a while to see whether I was satisfied, and I always told them I was satisfied at those bargains.

SENATOR MOODY: You approved these deals, but they were basically engineered by Mr. Sorenson; is that right?

MR. LA4SON: I approved the deals when they were made; yes. . .

SENATOR MOODY: But basically Mr. Sorenson is the man who suggested them and carried them out; is that correct?

MR. LAWSON: He is the man who knew all about machinery, and I didn't know anything about it, so I had to depend on him. I brought him there to teach machinery. I brought him from a little town down in Illinois.

SENATOR MOODY: When?

MR. LAWSON: Waukegan, I think.

SENATOR MOODY: When?

MR. LAWSON: About 4 years ago.

SENATOR MOODY: I see. I would like to have you answer my question. Is Mr. Sorenson the man who engineered these deals with the Government with your approval?

MR. LAWSON: With my approval, yes.

MR. NOONE: Mr. Lawson, is the University of Lawsonomy exempted from taxation by the State and local authorities in Iowa?

MR. LAWSON: Exempt?

MR. NOONE: Yes. Is it tax-exempt?

MR. LAWSON: Make it a little plainer. What was the question?

MR. NOONE: Is the University of Lawsonomy exempted from taxation as an educational institution by the State and local authorities in Iowa?

MR. LAWSON: Well, we were given it by the United States of America; yes.

MR. NOONE: But is it recognized as an educational institution in Iowa?

MR. LAWSON: Well, we were given--we were incorporated there for 15 years, so we must be recognized. They have never said we got to lose that incorporation.

MR. NOONE: Does the school pay taxes to the State of Iowa or the city of Des Moines?

MR. LAWSON: We pay them under protest; yes. We have paid them ever since we have been there. They wanted us to pay taxes, and the United States Government said we didn't have to. But they said they don't give a damn about the United States Government; they are running that thing there out in Polk County.

MR. NOONE: In other words, the State and local authorities in Iowa do not regard the University of Lawsonomy as---

MR. LAWSON: The State has never said one word one way or the other. It is Polk County politicians that do it, and they are trying to buy that place. We have had at least 50 different people come around there, real estate men, wanting to buy that, and they have always said they got a customer for it. We don't talk to them at all, and that is what makes them mad. We don't want to sell the university. I bought that for life. I want that to stay there after I am dead and gone. I gave it to these university people that we put in as trustees. Those trustees so far have done all right as far as I am concerned; and, if I am the donor and give it to them and they do what is right, I am satisfied.

You will have to show me those trustees didn't do what was right, and they haven't shown me yet. They have done a lot of bickering about it.

MR. NOONE: Mr. Lawson----

MR. LAWSON: When we talked about the United States Government giving us tax-free or words to that effect, they don't care a damn about the United States; they are Polk County and they are going to run Polk County, and that is all there is to it.

They say there is nothing to argue about there so far as Polk County. And I don't think the United States Government is going to use me that way. I gave all my patent rights to two big ships to the United States Government. You see these big double-decked airliners. I gave that to the United States Government. They are building those and have been for several years now. It took them 10 years to build them after I built the first one. That is what I did for the United States Government, and am going to do it as long as I live, and I don't care what the hell these people say out in Polk County.

SENATOR MOODY: Mr. Lawson, as I understand it, then, the United States Government recognized your university as an institution of learning, but the Polk County officials did not; is that correct?

MR. LAWSON: What is that?

SENATOR MOODY: As I understand you, then, the United States Government has recognized your university as an educational institution, but the Polk County officials have refused to do so; is that correct?

MR. LAWSON: They have given us a certificate of tax-free; yes; and the other fellows won't do that. In other words, the other fellows think they are bigger than the United States Government. I asked one of them, "Why is it that the United States Government gives us those rights and you don't?" And he says, "We don't care a damn for the United States Government," or words to that effect. "We will do as we like," says this fellow. He comes out there and overruns our university every once in a while.

SENATOR MOODY: What is his name?

MR. LAWSON: What is that?

SENATOR MOODY: I say what is his name?

MR. LAWSON: Well there is a fellow, Zuber, for one of them. He is the fellow that is the tax man there.

SENATOR MOODY: How do you spell his name, do you know?

MR. LAWSON: Z-u-b-e-r.

SENATOR MOODY: He is the tax official of Polk County; is that correct?

MR. LAWSON: He is the tax man in the city of Des Moines. That is all I know.

SENATOR MOODY: All right.

MR. LAWSON: He sends us the tax bill, and we have been paying them under protest for 8 years.

SENATOR MOODY: Now, Mr. Lawson, I realize that you were subpoenaed in Columbus, Ohio, and you had no opportunity to return to Des Moines to get your records before coming here. I would like to have you give us, however, to the best of your recollection the amounts for which you sold these machine tools.

MR. LAWSON: Well, I think you had better leave the secretary and treasurer tell you that. I don't know. I never go into figures at all. I am thinking of great philosophical thoughts for the benefit of mankind that will come after me. I don't go into these little details of dollars and cents at all.

SENATOR MOODY: Mr. Lawson, did you consider the fact that you bought 62 machine tools from the Government for less than $4,500.00 and sold 45 of the 62, as I understand it, for $120,000.00--

MR. LAWSON: The school did, not Lawson.

SENATOR MOODY: As a little detail?

MR. LAWSON: It was the school, the university, that bought them. You are putting it onto the donor's shoulders.

SENATOR MOODY: I see.

MR. LAWSON: I am donor. I gave all this. When I die, it is there. It is there now. It will keep getting bigger and bigger, running up into hundreds of millions of dollars some day.

I took an old Baptist university that was run down and which they couldn't make go, and I bought it for $80,000.00 and turned it over to this university, turned it over to this organization.

SENATOR MOODY: Do I understand that you did not profit from this deal personally?

MR. LAWSON: Profit? Why, no. What profit could I get out of it?

SENATOR MOODY: You might have gotten part of this $115,000.00.

MR. LAWSON: Say, listen (holding up right hand). If there is a God somewhere I hope he will strike me dead if I did. Now do you understand how I feel about it?

SENATOR MOODY: Yes, sir. What is Mr. Sorenson's salary?

MR. LAWSON: Eh?

SENATOR MOODY: What is Mr. Sorenson's salary?

MR. LAWSON: Salary?

SENATOR MOODY: How much do you pay Mr. Sorenson?

MR. LAWSON: We don't pay him anything. We don't pay any of our students anything. We give them board free and washing and everything that goes with the living.

SENATOR MOODY: I did not ask about the students.

MR. LAWSON: Well, he is a student. Sorenson is a student.

SENATOR MOODY: Who are the professors at the university?

MR. LAWSON: Who is what?

SENATOR MOODY: Who teaches Mr. Sorenson?

MR. LAWSON: Well, Sorenson was brought there to teach the machinery. We have a music master there named, well, now, Stanley Jablonski, who has been there 6 years.

SENATOR MOODY: I see. You say you brought Mr. Sorenson there to teach?

MR. LAWSON: To teach machinery and to look after the books.

SENATOR MOODY: And a minute ago you said he was a student. Will you please clarify that?

MR. LAWSON: He is a student. They are all students there now.

SENATOR MOODY: Who teaches him?

MR. LAWSON: I teach Lawsonomy. That is the only thing I teach--Lawsonomy.

SENATOR MOODY: A while ago you said you only dropped by there once in a while.

MR. LAWSON: Yes. Well, I say they are teaching him. They study it from our books. I have written 50 books in the last 20 years.

SENATOR MOODY: Who teaches him--the board of trustees?

MR. LAWSON: Yes; they read it among themselves, read out to one another, and then they memorize it.

SENATOR MOODY: Now, Mr. Lawson, do you know that the university- bought from the Government two boring machines for $38.86 which cost the Government $5, 806.00? Are you familiar with that?

MR. LAWSON: I don't know anything about the figures at all; no.

SENATOR MOODY: Do you know that the Government sold for $83.69 a Warner-Swasey turret lathe and a tapping machine which cost the Government $3384.02? Are you familiar with that?

MR. LAWSON: I know they sold some machines, but I don't know what the prices are. I know that they were pretty good prices; yes. What they are, why it's enough to stagger my memory to try and figure out all those figures when I am not interested in machines or capital, money, or anything else.

SENATOR MOODY: They are rather staggering figures. I will concede that. Now, can you tell us how many students have studied in your class of machinery, if any, at the university?

MR. LAWSON: I couldn't say that; no. All I know is that we have had anywhere from 20 to 100 students there. We had boys and girls together when we had a hundred, and the boys and girls didn't study together, so we made it a man's college altogether. It is a man's college.

SENATOR MOODY: Did you know, Mr. Lawson, on August 15, 1947, your university purchased from the War Assets Administration Omaha warehouse at Fort Cook, Nebr., a dump truck for $8.00?

MR. LAWSON: Bought a what?

SENATOR MOODY: A dump truck for $8.00.

MR. LAWSON: A bus?

SENATOR MOODY: A truck.

MR. LAWSON: A truck?

SENATOR MOODY: Yes.

MR. LAWSON: For how much?

SENATOR MOODY: Eight dollars.

MR. LAWSON: Yes.

SENATOR MOODY: Did you hear about that?

MR. LAWSON: Yes. (Laughing) One part was in Illinois and the other part was way out in Nebraska, and when we got the two parts together they didn't fit, and it cost us something like $36,000.00, I believe, to put them together again. (Laughter)

SENATOR MOODY: The committee will take a short recess for about 2 minutes. (A short recess was taken.)

SENATOR MOODY: Mr. Lawson----

MR. LAWSON: Incidentally, just a minute now. I was the first one that gave the United States Army figures on what every country in the world had in the shape of aeronautics. I gave the Army, and at that time the Army only had one general, brigadier general.

SENATOR MOODY: When was that? (Laughter.)

MR. LAWSON: Sure. You didn't catch what I said. The Army Air Force only had one brigadier general and six enlisted men and two or three lieutenants. That is all they had. And I had a magazine that I called Fly, and I used to publish what was going on all over the world, and the Army took my figures all the way for several years.

SENATOR MOODY: All right, Mr. Lawson----

MR. LAWSON: And another thing. Just a minute. I gave up all my patents to the Army. You see that big double-deck machine flying around here. I was the inventor of that, and I gave it to the Army several years ago. Now the Army has been using it for troop ships, and now these fellows are using it for carrying passengers. Lawson was the fellow that built the first airliner, and Lawson was the first man in the world to coach the United States Army in what all the other countries in the world were doing in aeronautics. Don't forget that. That is something you need to think about.

SENATOR MOODY: If we may get back a moment to this particular deal in machine tools. since you were unable to bring your records this morning, I think I ought to put into the record at this point the list of tools which was sold to your university for $4,480.09 which had cost the Government $204,417.31.

MR. LAWSON: They were selling them to all colleges for the same amount.

SENATOR MODY: That is right.

MR. LAWSON: Then, why do you complain about our college when they were selling them to every college in the United States at the same amount?

SENATOR MOODY: We are trying to find out whether these machines were used for educational purposes or not.

MR. LAWSON: That is all right. I am glad you are. I am glad to know what is the cause of all this trouble. Every college in the United States got them at the same price as our college. Now, why pick out our college? That is what I am trying to wonder.

SENATOR MOODY: Mr. Lawson, we have the same interest that some of the other units of Government have in the nature of the institution which is to qualify as an educational institution. The institution must have actually used these machines for educational purposes in order to have the right to sell them.

Now, you have been operating your university apparently----

MR. LAWSON: What would you compare as far as the teaching of Lawsonomy? You have no comparison. It is a new university. It is a new thing. The teaching of Lawsonomy is like a baby being born; you have no qualifications to compare it to. A new born baby, you can't say what he is like. You don't know what he is like until after he is grown up. His characteristics won't reflect right away. He has to have a chance to grow up and prove to the world what he is able to do.

What are you going to compare Lawsonomy to? There is nothing. There has never been anything. There will be, though. We are just pioneers in this work. It is the greatest moral teaching there ever was, ever will be. You have to give it a chance to prove itself, and you men will be responsible for that.

SENATOR MOODY: Now, Mr. Lawson, are there still any of those machine tools at your university?

MR. LAWSON: I don' t know anything about the figures, I am telling you.

SENATOR MOODY: Are there any tools left there at the university now?

MR. LAWSON: The last time I was there there were.

SENATOR MOODY: There were some?

MR. LAWSON: Some, yes.

SENATOR MOODY: Is Mr. Sorenson endeavoring to sell the rest of them?

MR. LAWSON: I don't know whether he is or whether he isn't. I didn't say "yes" or 'no" when. he asked me about it. I don't think he has been for the last few weeks.

SENATOR MOODY: Are those tools now being used?

MR. LAWSON: I don't know. You will have to ask Mr. Sorenson about that. I don't know anything about machine tools.

SENATOR MOODY: Can you tell us how many students were in the class that used these machine tools?

MR. LAWSON: No; I can't.

SENATOR MOODY: Can you tell us where the proceeds from the sale of the machine tools went? Who has control of the money?

MR. LAWSON: Who had control?

SENATOR MOODY: Who has control of the money that your university got for the machine tools?

MR. LAWSON: Well, the board of trustees, of course.

SENATOR MOODY: I see. Now, can you give us----

MR. LAWSON: I have nothing to do with that. I am merely the donor of it.

SENATOR MOODY: Is Mr. Sorenson a member of the board of trustees?

MR. LAWSON: Yes; he is a member of the board of trustees.

SENATOR MOODY: Who did you say was the president of the university was a few minutes ago?

MR. LAWSON: Who was what?

SENATOR MOODY: Who is the president of the university?

MR. LAWSON: Hayter.

SENATOR MOODY: What is his first name?

MR. LAWSON: What did I say his first name was a little while ago? You asked me these questions.

SENATOR MOODY: Never mind that.

MR. LAWSON: I told you once.

SENATOR MOODY: Is he a member of the board of trustees?

MR. LAWSON: Yes; he is the president and a member of the board of trustees.

SENATOR MOODY. Can you give us the names of any others of the board of trustees?

MR. LAWSON: I could give you all of them if I had time to think and write and get it.

SENATOR MOODY. Can you give me any other member of the board of trustees? Just take a moment to think if you can and give us the name of one or two other members of this board of trustees.

MR. LAWSON: Well, there is the new treasurer I put in. What did I say his name was? I told you the new treasurer. You keep popping these questions to me when my mind is not in a fit condition to mention the names of everybody I ever knew connected with our organization..

SENATOR MOODY: All right. Are you a member of the board of trustees yourself?

MR. LAWSON: No; I am not a member of the board of trustees. I am the donor of this organization. I gave the whole thing to them. I bought it for $80,000.00, and turned it over to the board of trustees.

SENATOR MOODY: And this entire machine tool deal was carried out, according to your testimony, not by you but by the board of trustees of the university, of which Mr. Hayter and Mr. Sorenson are members?

MR. LAWSON: Yes. I don't know how the devil you get me mixed up in it--the donor. I put $80,000.00 in there, and then put another $50,000.00 in to fix it up as the donor, and I never got a penny out of it, and you sort of hang something around my throat as though I had something to do with it.

SENATOR MOODY: We are just looking for the facts, Mr. Lawson.

MR. LAWSON: What is that?

SENATOR MOODY: We are just looking for the facts.

MR. LAWSON. Well, I am giving you the facts, but you pop these questions. I am not interested. I am interested in seeing to other things.

SENATOR MOODY: Well, Mr. Lawson----

MR. LAWSON: To tell you the truth, I am interested in where your soul goes after you die. If you want to know, that is what I am interested in.

SENATOR MOODY: So am 1.

MR. LAWSON: I am glad to know that. If you read the Lawsonian religion you will find the natural way to find it.

SENATOR MOODY: Will you instruct Mr. Sorenson and Mr. Hayter when they come here to testify to bring the records of the university showing the list of trustees and the salaries of the trustees?

MR. LAWSON: The salaries of them?

SENATOR MOODY: Yes.

MR. LAWSON: They don't get any salary.

SENATOR MOODY: How do they eat?

MR. LAWSON: They work at other things.

SENATOR MOODY: They do?

MR. LAWSON: Yes.

SENATOR MOODY: Well, now----

MR. LAWSON: Sorenson lives right there. He eats and so does Hayter live there and eats. And they all eat there. They get their washing done. All our students get their board, lodging, and washing and everything that goes with it.

SENATOR MOODY: Do they have to pay any tuition?

MR. LAWSON: What is that?

SENATOR MOODY: Do they have to pay for going there?

MR. LAWSON: No, they never paid a cent. They don't have money when they go there. We tell them, "Don't bring any money here with them."

SENATOR MOODY: I see.

MR. LAWSON: We want to live a life without money. I have had too much trouble already with money. I gave up the aviation business because I didn't want to make any more money. I could have made a million. I will give you documents, if you want to read them, where I could have made millions out of this thing and turned it down.

SENATOR MOODY: Well, the university did pretty well on this machine tool deal. I will say that.

MR. LAWSON: What is that?

SENATOR MOODY: The university did pretty well on this machine tool deal.

MR. LAWSON: Well, I didn't quite hear you.

SENATOR MOODY. I would like to find out who has control of this money that----

MR. LAWSON: Of the money?

SENATOR MOODY: Of the money that your university obtained from the sale of these machine tools.

MR. LAWSON: Sorenson was the secretary and treasurer up until a few weeks ago. We have got a man that is named--oh, I told you his name twice.

SENATOR MOODY: Does Sorenson or the new treasurer have control of the $120,000.00 which you have received from the sale of these tools?

MR. LAWSON: They have spent--they have been spending it right along; yes.

SENATOR MOODY: They have been spending it right along?

MR. LAWSON: Yes, for the good of the university.

SENATOR MOODY: What have they done with it?

MR. LAWSON: Eh?

SENATOR MOODY: What have they done with it? How have they spent it?

MR. LAWSON: In general expenses and whatever was necessary. They got it on the books.

SENATOR MOODY: How much of it is left?

MR. LAWSON: Oh, I don't know just how much is in the treasury. It seems to me the last time they gave me an accounting--and they give me that every time I go there--I think they had about $30,000.00 in the treasury.

SENATOR MOODY: You mean to say that they have spent about $85,000.00 of this money?

MR. LAWSON: The last accounting they gave me they had about $30,000.00, I think I remember.

SENATOR MOODY: Did they tell you----

MR. LAWSON: That is in the treasury.

SENATOR MOODY: Did they tell you where they had spent $85,000.00 of this money from the machine tools?

MR. LAWSON: No; that subject never even came up to me. They have been giving me the statements every time I went there. The statements looked all right.

SENATOR MOODY: You say they don't pay Federal Income taxes?

MR. LAWSON: Eh?

SENATOR MOODY: You say there is no Federal tax paid on this money; is that correct?

MR. LAWSON: No Federal tax?

SENATOR MOODY: Yes. Didn't you say a while ago that while Polk Countv and Des Moines officials require you to pay the taxes, the Federal Government does not?

MR. LAWSON: Not that I know of.

SENATOR MOODY: So that there is no requirement that an accounting of this money be submitted to the Federal Government?

MR. LAWSON: Communist? I don't know what communism is.

SENATOR MOODY: No. I say, there was no requirement that an accounting of the money be submitted to the Federal Government either in a tax----

MR. LAWSON: You had better wait and ask the secretary. He knows those things. If you want me to tell you something about your soul, come into another room and I will tell you all about it. When you get into these figures and money-making schemes, I don' t know anything about them.

I got out of the aircraft business to get away from money-making schemes. Now you are trying to hang one on my neck right now.

SENATOR MOODY: Mr. Lawson, will you furnish me the full name of Mr. Hayter and give it to me so we can address a subpoena to him?

MR. LAWSON: What is that?

SENATOR MOODY: Can you get the full name of Hayter and will you give it to me so that we can address a subpoena to him?

MR. LAWSON: H-a-y-t-e-r. Hayter.

MR. NOONE: Do you have his first name?

MR. LAWSON: I just told you a short time ago and I can't think of it quickly. I have had probably 2 million names float through my brain in the last 20 years, and it is getting stagnated with names.

MR. NOONE: I don't believe his full name is in the record. Could you check on that and give me a call later in the day?

MR. LAWSON: Yes. Hayter--H-a-y-t-e-r--is president.

MR. NOONE: Can we reach both Mr. Hayter and Mr. Sorenson at the university?

MR. LAWSON: At the university; yes.

MR NOONE: Thank you.

MR. LAWSON: Yes. Just tell them to come on down here.

SENATOR MOODY: Mr. Lawson, we are going to continue you under subpoena so you may appear on. the same day Mr. Hayter and Mr. Sorenson appear, and we will have the three of you appear together.

MR. LAWSON: What is that?

SENATOR MOODY: I say we are going to continue you under subpoena.

MR. LAWSON: Yes.

SENATOR MOODY: So that on the day Mr. Sorenson and Mr. Hayter appear you will be here with them.

MR. LAWSON: Yes; all right.

SENATOR MOODY: That is all for this morning, sir. Thank you very much.

MR. LAWSON: All right. The damnedest thing I ever heard of in all my life.

SENATOR MOODY: I do not know whether we are talking about the same thing, but I am inclined to agree with you. (Laughter.)